Drew gathers some fire protection industry professionals from different perspectives at Agave Bar in San Antonio after the NFPA Expo. A round table discussion occurs on dry & preaction sprinkler systems and sprinkler system corrosion.
Full Episode
Drew Slocum: (00:09):
This is episode 10 of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. Today, the topic is clearing the air. So I came up with clearing air a few months ago. I wanted to get a bunch of different , um, professionals from fire protection in a room together. Uh, not only corrosion. We've got, um, a fire protection contractor. A couple of them. We have a fire protection engineer. Uh, we have a nitrogen, uh, generating manufacturer, south Tech. Uh, we also have general air products on there. So wanted to get a good consensus, uh, of different fire protection perspectives and professionals in the industry to shed some light on the corrosion issues happening. And, and mainly dry and pre-action. We don't really get into the wet systems too much, but add a trade show, like at fpa, this awesome trade show and other, uh, association trade shows around around fire protection.
(01:04)
You get a lot of maybe one-sided views on some of this topic, so wanted to get a big round table together, throw some margaritas down the table and, uh, really have at it. So, um, N F P A has been a great show, um, this week for Inspect Point and just the fire protection, um, industry in general. Uh, a lot of new technologies coming out, um, definitely on the software side of things, but more being pushed in the internet of things iot direction, which, uh, we kind of segue a little bit into that in the podcast as well. And some of the new technologies coming out there. But again, clear in the air. Really great topic. And, um, yeah, we also have, uh, posted this on Facebook live on Inspect Point's Facebook page, if you do wanna see a live video of this. So, uh, check it out, make sure to subscribe and we'll love more feedback if, uh, anybody has it. Have a good one.
Chris Logan: (02:04):
Do I introduce myself after I'm editing podcast, or no? Yeah, you should. Well, that's not the podcast. Run. Well, everybody leaves. Chris is gonna be there. Remote. Yes. Oh, I would walk home like this. Yes. Oh, that was good.
Drew Slocum: (02:27):
Well, uh, uh, we're here live at the, uh, well, they're still moving tables over there, but whatever, we'll continue. They're working. Um, this is the Agave Bar Cafe Ole on the Riverwalk here, San Antonio, uh, the week of N F P A Expo Conference here in San Antonio, Texas. So, uh, doing a little bit different style podcast today, doing a little round table with everybody here at a nice, uh, tech specs restaurant with some, uh, margaritas in tequila here.
Chris Logan: (03:21):
Uh, my name is Chris Logan. I'm with the Fire Sprinkler Podcast. I'm also a sprinkler contractor from Southwestern Ontario. I described myself as a fitter and a golf shirt, and I started out on tools, and Ive kind of moved into design estimating project management, uh, essentially doing anything for business that nobody else wants to do.
Henry Fontana: (03:41):
Cool.
Drew Slocum: (03:42):
What, before, after the intro, what did you gain out of N FPA Expo Week?
Chris Logan: (03:47):
What did I gain out of the nfpa, uh, expo so
Drew Slocum: (03:50):
Far?
Chris Logan: (03:50):
So far, yeah. So far. Well, so I'm actually heading out pretty much immediately after this intro,
Ray Freeman: (03:56):
Uh,
Chris Logan: (03:57):
Uh, it, it was good for me to see, uh, other kind of like-minded people in the industry coming together, uh, for the betterment of, uh, fire protection in general. Um, it was nice. Uh, I, I can only compare it to the conferences that I've been to, which are the, uh, the NFSA events. And, um, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a conference on steroids for fire protection. So, uh, it's not specific to Sprinkler, uh, which was good because you get a lot of different minded people in the fire protection industry looking at things. You get fire alarm, you get suppression, you get extinguishers, uh, and then you get into the, um, um, uh, the electrical, the electrical, uh, aspect of fire protection. And it's, it's just good to see the different ways people are doing things around the world. NFPA is the biggest fire protection organization everywhere. Uh, and it, they throw a hell of a show.
Ray Freeman: (04:49):
Yeah.
Drew Slocum: (04:50):
Yeah. It's been great. Ray,
Ray Freeman: (04:52):
Uh, Ray Freeman General Air Products, I'm the marketing director. Um, been involved in the industry for about 20 years, uh, general's, my family's company. So, um, we've been, uh, manufacturing air compressors for fire sprinkler system for over 50 years. Um, third, fourth, fourth generation, uh, at general. So my son's working
Chris Logan: (05:12):
Out in the shop, so,
Ray Freeman: (05:12):
And we got a fifth one going too, so there you go. Cool.
Henry Fontana: (05:16):
Alright. Henry Henry Fontana, the President of Fire Design, New Jersey. We're a sprinkler contractor in the New York, New Jersey area. Um, I've been in the industry also around 20 years. Started out as, uh, from everywhere from the, from the shop to a fitter installer being my way through the office as design and project management and sales. And now I'm running my own company and working in New York City metro area, installing all types of sprinkler systems.
Drew Slocum: (05:41):
Okay. Wait,
Lee Kaiser: (05:43):
I'm Lee Kaiser. Um, I'm with Board Protection Systems out of Louisville, Kentucky. And, uh, I'm VP of engineering for them. I'm a fire protection engineer. I worked in consulting, uh, up until working for, or, and, uh, we're primarily a special hazardous contractor. So, um, we look at things from the, uh, anything with a releasing circuit we really like. So we like some of the form and control stuff that you, you talked about. Um, and, uh, but a lot of our customers have free action systems and drive systems because of that. And we, we see the issues that we're gonna discuss all the time Sure. For, uh, for those customers. And so we hear a lot of their perspectives.
Jake Lehman: (06:28):
Cool. I'm, uh, Jake Lehman with South Tech Systems. I'm the fire protection team lead. Been with the company a little over four and a half years, and we manufacture nitrogen generators. We've been in nitrogen generator manufacturing for over two decades in the fire protection industry for 10 plus years. Um, just bringing a bunch of different products and a little different mindset as far as nitrogen goes to the, to the industry.
Drew Slocum: (06:51):
You got some good coffee too.
Jake Lehman: (06:53):
We do. Little cold brew nitro coffee. So,
Drew Slocum: (07:06):
With nitrogen.
Jake Lehman: (07:07):
Cold brew. Nitrogen what? Coffee. Nitrogen. Yep. My flight got delayed.
Lee Kaiser: (07:22):
Free.
Drew Slocum: (07:25):
Well thanks everyone for joining. Little cheers. We'll do one at the end. We can order, order whatever you guys want, you know. Cheers. Um, drew from the podcast. Everybody knows who I am, but, um, yeah, thanks everybody for coming. Wanted to really, uh, kind of get, um, and you can leave whenever you want. Yeah.
Jake Lehman: (07:43):
I've,
Drew Slocum: (07:44):
We'll start talking us.
Jake Lehman: (07:45):
You've been appointed to leave, introduce myself, podcast. Bad taste.
Drew Slocum: (07:56):
So, um, I'll kind of intro it a little bit. You know, there's a lot of talk of corrosion. I, I previously worked for Tyco and, uh, Viking for, for years doing dry and pre-action system. Sold a lot of general air products. Sold a lot of self tech and some of the other manufacturers out there. So, um, had experience from the, actually the supplier's point of view, so I could kind of push that as well. But, um, there's a lot of different things going on with corrosion and, um, you know, dry systems preact action is not going away anytime soon. Um, so wanted to kind of point out some of the pros and cons that I've heard and you guys can just start right off the bat, just start chatting about it. Um, you know, dry and pre-action systems, for those who don't know, they keep moving tables.
Jake Lehman: (08:45):
Drew Slocum: (08:48):
Are, are essentially fire sprinkler systems that, um, are susceptible to cold weather for more on dry system side. So anything below 40 degrees, any time of the year, you're gonna run into a dry system. Pre action's more, it's a little bit different. It's still quote unquote a dry system. But preact action's more, uh, uh, they want to know, you want to know you have a fire, an IT room is historical place, even a freezer. Uh, a lot of times you have pre action. So, um, those are different types of systems out there. Now, obviously you have water up to the valve itself on top of that, you either, you know, for years and years you had compressed air, uh, 10 years ago. Somebody can correct me. I'm wrong if it's probably longer than that. Um, nitrogen was, I don't know, introduced or kind of poured over
Henry Fontana: (09:40):
From different generators
Ray Freeman: (09:41):
Specifically. Yeah, there was, I mean, nitrogen canisters, I think we've been used for the past probably 30 plus years. And it was generators about 10 years ago that
Chris Logan: (09:49):
Came in that. Right. I've got a couple, uh, facilities that we service that, uh, long before nitrogen generators had been around and I've been in the industry for a short period of time, but I can remember, uh, not that there was any, uh, child slave labor involved, but I remember as a kid,
Drew Slocum: (10:07):
Okay. Yeah.
Henry Fontana: (10:08):
I've seen the same nitrogen bottles. A regulator just constantly swapping 'em out.
Chris Logan: (10:13):
That's right. Yeah. Changing them.
Drew Slocum: (10:15):
Good to see how often you swap them out.
Henry Fontana: (10:16):
It depends on if, if there's a lot of surface going on or how big the system is and, uh, cause you know, quarterly or whatever people are doing the low air draining them out. Right. They had to move heads. So it's pretty, its pretty often umprobably four or five times a year. You'd have to usually have a couple bottles there. Yep. Then when you were doing your maintenance, you would move one over and it'd take a couple to the filling station and have 'em refill it and bring 'em back. Huh.
Drew Slocum: (10:38):
Lee, you mentioned it the other day to me, you guys still do a lot of the
Lee Kaiser: (10:41):
Yeah, we, we've, um, we still see facilities with bottle gas systems.
Chris Logan: (10:45):
Yeah.
Lee Kaiser: (10:46):
Um, what we would try to guide people towards is if your system's not that leaky. Yep. It's a, it's a opportunity, but, you know, uh, if it is a leaky system, it's probably not a great idea. And if it's a big system, it's probably not a great idea. Frankly, with the bottle gas system, a lot of these facilities that might have that they're small enough to have a bottle gas system that's the only high pressure cylinder in that facility and it's a safety thing that they're not used to dealing with. Oh, right. And this thing shoved off on the corner and once in a while somebody touches it. But if somebody screws up and knocks that bottle over and is not chained and place correctly, you know, they can be inducing safety concerns that they don't have. Yep. Anything that, anything else. Right.
Chris Logan: (11:30):
I believe there's different, there's other requirements in NFPA 25 as far as care and maintenance of uh, like stored bottled gas as well. I think that's like a weekly inspection that's gonna be done on that to make sure that the bald are top up. You might know a little bit as
Drew Slocum: (11:44):
Well, we should
Henry Fontana: (11:46):
Drew Slocum: (11:47):
I don't know the low
Lee Kaiser: (11:50):
Pressure alarm would be the thing that would trip be off the slope,
Chris Logan: (11:53):
But I think the stored air supply has to be, uh, if it's bottled only and not like a self-creating like a, like a generator or an air compressor, I think there's something in, and I may be wrong, right? Like I'll be the first guy who fully admitted if I'm wrong. But I think there's something in an NBA 25, uh, that, that mentions monitoring the bottles of stored, uh, gas supply.
Jake Lehman: (12:15):
Lot times you'll see like two bottles where they want a changeover automatic changeover. So it lets you know when the first one is isn't going low so that you're not moving out of it. I mean, nitrogen itself is fairly inexpensive, but depending on where you're at, if you're remote, you're can't get the bottles. That's, uh, obviously a headache. And then, like we talked about, the, the fact that if you're knock on over, you can send it through multiple brick walls.
Lee Kaiser: (12:36):
It's
Henry Fontana: (12:36):
3000 PSI in those
Jake Lehman: (12:37):
Bottles. That's no joke,
Henry Fontana: (12:39):
Yeah, exactly.
Drew Slocum: (12:40):
Well, we don't have a bottle gas person here, so No, don't worry about that. So, you know, bottle gas been around for 30 years. What's kind of, you know, last 10, 15 years, uh, nitrogen still, you know, still great for, for, for dry systems. Um, and what, what's, I don't even know what spurred this on, you know, in the industry 10 years ago, but those bottle gases kind of turned, morphed into the nitrogen generation where you don't have to worry about that change out. So, um,
Jake Lehman: (13:13):
Yeah, we, we got approached by a facility that had switched. They were having corrosion issues, they switched the bottles. Right. And they had a bank of like eight of them that they were using, cuz it was fairly large facility and they did a good job at mitigating the corrosion, but the problem was changing 'em out all the time and having to deal with 'em. So that's really where we had a contractor come to us and said, Hey, we know you do nitrogen. What, what kind of solution can you provide us for it? Right. That's how we got our foot.
Drew Slocum: (13:36):
That's how you guys got into it. Yeah. Really. Yeah.
Lee Kaiser: (13:38):
And that's how we saw with other industrial uses of nitrogen, uh, and, and equipment that could make nitrogen from the air. Then all of a sudden, hey, there's an idea of well maybe this could be used for our fire protection system. So there was other commercially viable reasons, right. That there were products to make nitrogen cause just somebody figured out that it could be applied to
Drew Slocum: (13:58):
This industry. Yeah. And they had the history with the corrosion, you know,
Henry Fontana: (14:01):
From,
Drew Slocum: (14:02):
From that. So
Henry Fontana: (14:02):
I met with the membrane, uh, guy at, at the show here today and he, I never actually saw the inside of one. It
Drew Slocum: (14:08):
Looks, it's like pretty,
Henry Fontana: (14:10):
Yeah, it's pretty simple. Just a tiny little straws that the nitrogen flows through the center of 'em and the oxygen goes out to sides. So it's an easy process to, to separate. And the manufacturers figured out how to get it all compact and hooked to a sprinkler system. Right, right. Cause it doesn't look like hard technology.
Jake Lehman: (14:26):
No, I mean there, there's, there's really like three ways to take nitrogen from the air and a little different variations of all, you know, cryogenically, you can take the air temperature down the negative 320 degrees Fahrenheit and nitrogen will come outta the air and the form of a liquid. It's not really cost effective. And, you know, fire sprinkler application
Henry Fontana: (14:40):
I think it's called too. Yeah,
Jake Lehman: (14:41):
Yeah, exactly. Uh, you know, membrane technology like you're talking about with the hollow fibers in there, and then pressure swing absorbtion technology where you're, you're swinging pressure between, um, carbon, basically carbon zi beds to extract the nitrogen from there. There's different variations of it, but for the most part those are your three
Ray Freeman: (14:56):
Three main ones. Yeah. No, it's know something I don't, no
Chris Logan: (15:02):
So how has it changed over the past 30 years since the, like inception of, of stored nitrogen on site to nitrogen generators? Was it like a day one, day two, or was it, um, like when, when did, when did nitrogen generators first start coming to the fire protection market?
Ray Freeman: (15:21):
I think between both the prevalence of, you know, fire sprinklers being put into more locations, are you seeing, uh, corrosion being more of an issue? I mean, you can't get around it. Right. Um, and then on top of that, the, the maintenance costs associated with bottled just started to say, okay, this is, this is something that's worth exploring. See, I wonder if,
Chris Logan: (15:39):
I wonder if there's any kind of a correlation between,
Lee Kaiser: (15:42):
Um,
Chris Logan: (15:43):
Older systems and you, you being from New York, older systems all the time, dry systems 40, 50 years ago were all threaded. Skip 40,
Drew Slocum: (15:53):
Get 80 sometimes.
Chris Logan: (15:54):
Yeah. Red
Henry Fontana: (15:56):
Heavy. And it's a big thing is installation too. A lot of they were, I I think fitters, I mean I'm a fitter myself, but uh, back in the day were more careful on pitch and there wasn't so many requirements about, Hey, I gotta get all this stuff in, in a six inch ceiling, the duct, the electrical and everything. So now pitches blown out of the way. Yeah. But the
Lee Kaiser: (16:12):
Pitch, the pitch rules have only been around since 2007. You know, it's be 13, I would say a lot of older systems were installed dead flat. Yeah. And, and I would bet, here's when I think of things, yeah, it's all still steel pipe. If it's scheduled 40, it's still got a corrosion problem. It's just that it's the pipe's thicker. So you haven't seen a leak. We realized that there's a corrosion problem in the system because of leaks. So that's where it rears its ugly head. So
Chris Logan: (16:39):
You, do you think it's like we had to find another way to combat corrosion because we're using lighter materials, skid seven, which isn't used a lot now, but Skid 10 is used in dry systems daily. Yeah. Do you failures? It's not so much,
Lee Kaiser: (16:51):
It's the time to failure, the time that it takes to get a leak shortened because the material thickness went down.
Henry Fontana: (16:58):
Yeah.
Lee Kaiser: (16:58):
And I think that's what brought the consciousness
Henry Fontana: (17:01):
Up. I don't think they, manufacturers of steel, which there's nobody here have changed the steel. Somehow. I,
Drew Slocum: (17:05):
So I worked on the pipe because,
Henry Fontana: (17:07):
Sorry, we put in it is in a wet system and a pump room and, and in place. Um, and that's where we're talking to other people who treat water. Um, and the pump room, when you see a lot of erosion and it's, cuz that's where the fresh water and the fresh oxygen's coming in and it literally, we put schedule 48 inch pipe in, in a pump room. And then two years later it had a pinhole. Oh really? We just replaced it, the concrete lines up the iron. So hopefully, uh, we decided to move the underground pipe into the
Drew Slocum: (17:30):
Inside. I I do think it's a quality of steel. I, I was on, I worked for Allied Sprinkler pipe on the line and some of the hot rolled steel that would come over that they manufactured on probably was way different 50 years ago than it is today. Yeah. Regulations, they're stepped the regulations, a lot of that's coming from overseas and a lot of it's recycled and then it's coming over. So I, I do think there is, I know there's no steel pipe person here right now as well. I think there is something there too.
Jake Lehman: (17:57):
And water chemistry has changed
Drew Slocum: (17:59):
Over time and water chemistry,
Jake Lehman: (18:00):
They're putting different things in the water. You know, a lot of times they'll use a, like a phosphate in there to help line the pipe, but that's also a food for biological stuff. Right. So there's a lot of different things that change. Um, you know, I, my previous life I tested a lot of water and I could test water from the same municipality but two different plants and, uh, the chemistry would be totally different. Really? Yeah. I mean, you see pH low on one, high on the other. Well that's, that's, that's another factor that you gotta take into the
Chris Logan: (18:26):
Equation. Water's not water everywhere. Right.
Lee Kaiser: (18:29):
I think we just buy cheaper pipe than other industries. Yeah. So, you know, we are not, fire sprinklers is not the only industry with corrosion problems. Right. But we, um, over time I think we've stopped buying heat and yield pipe. I think that's the term, right? Yes. So Yep. Uh, heat and yield pipe and because it's cheaper, right? Yep. And so in sprinkler systems we stopped doing that, whereas in hydronic, um, systems for heating water, for chilled water for steam. Yep. And all we, they buy a more expensive heat and yield pipe because, because it's more resistant corrosion. Yep. And so just to keep the price of our systems down, keep the cost per square foot, we've bought cheaper pipe in this industry.
Chris Logan: (19:07):
So from a contractor point of view, um, what I see in, in the contracting field is, uh, obviously lowest bidder gets a job. But as far as us versus other mechanical contractors on site, we're always the lowest by multiple percents. Correct. Right. Um, you know, one to 2% of a total overhead, uh, uh, project. I was just talking to a general today and, and you know, my bill on a project 24 million project was somewhere in the 400,000 range. And he was telling me the other mechanical contractors on site or are three and four. And it was something, there was an argument over like a a a a Volvo valve for, for a, a suppression system on a, on a duct board. Like I'll just make them, their contractors' worth 4 million. And I was like, they're trying to get me to pay it. Like
(19:55)
Yeah. Right. Like so it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's an issue from the contractors as well because it's, it's essentially, it's a, it's a race to the bottom for contracts. Cuz the lowest bidder's gonna get the project. Most of the time there are guys that want quality over mm-hmm.
Henry Fontana: (20:32):
Yeah. We do do some work for, uh, transit in New York and they spec cause they probably know this and they've done their research like all crazy ASTM you know, 53 B seamless pipe cuz that's probably the pipe that's, you know, less likely. And, and the reason that when we asked them is that we want this to be here in a hundred years, you know, they have crazy specs on their hangers, on, on everything, not just their pipe. But that's, that's the reason that the guy building, you know, a shoe store doesn't have that same That's right. He just wants it in there. Yep.
Drew Slocum: (20:59):
So what we, we get out of this is there's a lot of different applications for, for different dry systems, you know, uh, transit versus a parking garage or a loading dock, what, you know, so with, with corrosion, there's a few things. Obviously there's a steel pipe issue that it's kind of maybe underlying the, I think there is some future technology that is coming out with some steel pipe that, uh, hasn't been introduced yet. We'll see if it ever takes off or whatever. But, um, right now nitrogen is nitrogen's a great solution. I think it still is a great solution for, for certain systems. Um, yeah, there's a lot of different
Henry Fontana: (21:39):
Mind this guy.
Drew Slocum: (21:40):
Oh wow. He's on it. Fine.
Chris Logan: (21:45):
I'm gonna, I'm gonna take this, I'm gonna take this kind of stop and, and drink break to, uh, thank everybody. I gotta head out. I'm close to missing my flight.
Drew Slocum: (21:55):
Thanks for having young guys. Nice to meet you. Uh, thanks for meeting everybody. Uh, listen to this. Check out the fire sprinkler podcast. Chris, Chris to meet you. I was out there. Thanks. It
Chris Logan: (22:02):
Was a pleasure.
Drew Slocum: (22:03):
We'll talk you for we'll talk this week. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks.
Henry Fontana: (22:06):
Travel.
Drew Slocum: (22:09):
So, um,
Henry Fontana: (22:14):
We got one, it won't go away.
Drew Slocum: (22:17):
I'll probably take one.
Jake Lehman: (22:20):
Yeah, we go.
Drew Slocum: (22:21):
Um, you know, there's a lot of different applications for nitrogen, uh, and compressed air and, and a combo probably of both, you know, different solutions. So, um, you know, let's, let's go, I'm gonna go around the room and just give a couple pros cons of, of, of you could pros and cons of compressed air versus nitrogen. You could even talk about other systems as well or you know, is it, is all all the corrosion, is that the best solution out there? You know, we talked about the steel, which is kind of great. So, uh, Jake, you wanna kick it off? Sure.
Jake Lehman: (22:57):
I mean, uh, as far in your perspective. Yeah. I mean, if nitrogen has its application, right? You got somebody that's looking for a hundred year building or somebody that's gonna be in that facility for an extended period of time, they're, they're looking to keep the sprinkler system out of sight outta mind, right? Mm-hmm.
Drew Slocum: (23:17):
Alone Right. You
Jake Lehman: (23:18):
Know, a generator. So hopefully they use a decent quality compressor and not something that they picked up at a big box
Drew Slocum: (23:48):
Determine, so how, how do you, do you go to the owner? Do you go to the contractor? Do you, how do
Jake Lehman: (23:53):
You do that? It's a, it's awareness and that's where, you know, you're looking at when did, when did nitrogen start coming in? It's just really started as an awareness situation when it's come out. You know, nitrogen generators when they first come out, a lot of people were using 95% purity. Right? Well that's what, what they thought that was gonna work. And then testing got put in place and we checked 95 to verse 98 versus compressed air. And let's see, let's see what's, what's gonna work the best from there and can really settle out on, on a number. And then it's kind of evolved from there. And that's where you see, you know, more companies doing it and more applications and the technology as technology advances. So do the, the generators that are moving along with it.
Drew Slocum: (24:29):
Yep. So that's good. Lee, any uh, insight on that? Yeah,
Lee Kaiser: (24:34):
I would say there's a, um, the change of point to me is what are you trying to do with your dry system? If you've got a small dry system that only exists in your building because of freeze protection reasons, you know, you may not make that investment in a nitrogen system. Right. Um, if you, any time you have a dry system because you want the reaction cuz you don't want pipes sitting or water sitting in your pipes right? Then it's an absolute candidate for a nitrogen system. Right. In my opinion. Because you're trying to protect something. You, you don't water want water in those pipes for some reason. And, uh, that's, that's to me that's the tripping point to know when a nitrogen system needed in whatever form. And I have, I have opinions whether it could be bottle or right or you know, a unit natural generator
Drew Slocum: (25:25):
Like trick. Big point. That's good. Uh, that's a good term. Trick.
Henry Fontana: (25:28):
Drew Slocum: (25:30):
Henry.
Henry Fontana: (25:32):
Well, as a contractor, I mean, we see, we, you know, doing maintenance and we see corrosion all the time and you know, on one sense that's good for us, their pipe leaks, so we get to replace their pipe every couple years. Yeah. Right. We want what's best for the customer and to continue there. So, um, there's definitely pros to, to the nitrogen from, you know, what I've learned and that that will stop any future corrosion. I didn't know anything about it until about 10 years ago. Um, I think I might be wrong, but I think we, um, I had this job and said some guys from General Air is gonna come with their compressor. Oh yeah, that's right. We went up in Newark, swear, I believe that was the first he showed nitrogen system, general air Yeah. Sent out me and him installed it ourselves Yeah. In this place. And then I was like, wow, this is, this is pretty deep. And um, so, so I definitely see a benefit of corrosion. I see there's a big misconception though on the customer's end where I see people are saying that, Hey, you have corrosion, we have your fix. It's nitrogen. I do not think it is a fix. If you have corroded pipe, you have to take care of that first. Yeah.
Jake Lehman: (26:32):
If Ray and I can figure out how to regrow pipe with nitrogen
Henry Fontana: (26:36):
Like that, some people are telling the customer, Hey, spend this amount of money on this nitrogen system and all your problems are solved. Sure. You definitely need to fix, need to. If the only way to do it is trip it to get the everything, loosen it up in there, then you're gonna have to trip that system and loosen everything. Get clean, clean, fix those leaks, then give them the nitrogen. So now you are confident, um, here to go. And it's not just nitrogen. There's also, you know, if you, if you can, there's also manufacturer do dry putting dry air in there. Yeah. And that's the same if corrosion is a triangle and you need moisture, oxygen and a and a metal just get rid of, same as a fire triangle, one part of that. So putting in dry air right. Would then, you know, you only have air and metal, no moisture. Right.
Drew Slocum: (27:18):
Which would be good.
Henry Fontana: (27:18):
Just, you know, very big on you have to fix issues before you do this. Right. Unless it's a brand new system. If it's a new system, there's benefits on it. Like maybe you can go to the schedule 10 and you save the price of this generator now, and now it's, you can kind of show them that it's cost effective. Right.
Drew Slocum: (27:34):
Like, you know,
Henry Fontana: (27:35):
If it's $10,000 to go with schedule 40 and a compressor and 7,000 for schedule 10 and the compressor's three, now you kind of got your nitrogen generator for the cost of the other system. Right. And it's new
Jake Lehman: (27:45):
And you gotta make sure the corrosion that you're trying to protect can be protected by nitrogen. Correct. So if it's some other type of form, if nitrogen's not gonna be a benefit there, that's just gonna have a very upset customer. Right. Yeah.
Henry Fontana: (27:56):
I know we did see a customer that had, uh, those little, it looked like muscles in there. Mm-hmm.
Jake Lehman: (28:07):
It depends on what the root cause. Root cause of the corrosion was. It was
Henry Fontana: (28:10):
Crazy. We dump it out.
Drew Slocum: (28:12):
No, really? Yeah. Like muscles growing in there.
Henry Fontana: (28:14):
Yeah. We were a little tiny like, like
Jake Lehman: (28:15):
Pulling from a pond or
Henry Fontana: (28:16):
Something. Yeah. No, this is Brooklyn pulling things from Brooklyn. Water,
Drew Slocum: (28:20):
Sewer water. Ah, I flew from Brooklyn. You're that, you bring up a good point. Retrofits versus pull, you know, brand new install. I think there's a big separation between those two. And with retrofits it depends. There's a lot of, it depends with new installs, I think it's more, you know, black and white mm-hmm.
Ray Freeman: (28:44):
Any, yeah, I mean, you know, we look at it, you know, again, from an air compressor perspective, being an air compressor company, we look at generators or a version of an air compressor, you know, just like Henry brought up dry air as a version of a, an air compressor. And, um, you know, the, the drawbacks to a nitrogen generator are the risk restricted air flow. You know, the, the amount of, uh, ccfm that you get out of a a generator is substantially lower than what you get out of an air compressor. So it's a question of, you know, again, going back to what are the existing air leaks, you know, and, and addressing those. Um, but you know, the, the other part of the message that I think sometimes gets left out when we talk about corrosion is corrosion isn't the only reason why dry systems leak. Um, and those, those reasons, you know, whether it's uh, cross threads or dried out, uh, couplings or, you know, valves not
Jake Lehman: (29:34):
Building, building, settling,
Ray Freeman: (29:35):
Building, settling, all of those types of things Right. Are going to cause leaks. And the, you know, as your CFM goes down with the generator and, and you know, again, this isn't dumping on generators, we, we build them too. Right. So I mean it's, it's not, it is just that they fundamentally have a much lower flow through them. And that means that as a system starts to leak more and more, that means the compressor's gonna run more and more. Your maintenance is gonna go up more and more. So that idea of, you know, uh, this is going to help us with our, our maintenance issue, um, if your maintenance issue is replacing pipe, yes. That's, that's what nitrogen's for. But then you go into down the road, okay, well now we're not replacing pipe, but we're having to address the fact that this air compressor's running 10 times more than it was before because it's making up that flow.
(30:19)
We're trying to fix air leaks in our system. Mm-hmm.
Lee Kaiser: (31:01):
It's just you gotta, if that's the case and you know
Ray Freeman: (31:03):
That ahead of time, size appropriately. Yeah, absolutely. Size it as much as you can. I mean certainly you want to get over, but, but the, the, you still have the airflow difference and that's, I guess that to me is the, the expectations that are set on the part of the customers and, and on the messages that are out there. I mean I know that, you know, we try to, to explain to people, look they're just, you know, like we're talking about here, there's pros and cons to these things. Sure. And you, you have to be aware of 'em because a nitrogen generator is not and but neither is an air compressor or anything. They're not a set it and forget it kind of piece of equipment. You, you have to be looking at that to make sure you're getting 98%. It's like the oil in your car. Exactly Right. You don't change it, you're gonna have a problem Exactly at point in time. Right. And that, that goes for your system, that goes for your unit, you know, whatever it is. You have to, you know, really look at that stuff.
Lee Kaiser: (31:46):
So since you're talking maintenance Yeah. I think the fire sprinkler industry in general with existing systems has an issue doing five year internal inspections.
Ray Freeman: (31:58):
Just gonna say I
Lee Kaiser: (31:58):
Just don't think that's done enough. No. And I think that if that was done more widely, we would understand the problem more completely. We see it's much bigger than what it really is. Yeah. Or what it seems on the surface. I think we've,
Drew Slocum: (32:10):
The other part of that and I was in a, uh, seems uh, that's a good point you bring up Lee cuz and well how do you get, and they're starting to do it with N F P you start to see it. But where is all that data being gathered back about the five year test and we're doing, were you in that presentation today? No,
Henry Fontana: (32:30):
Uh, I was not. But I was just saying about we do do fight. We're one of the contractors that push them very hard. Um, and we, we do do it to help try to, you know, show them their alternatives. Right. But we do it with a Boris scope, we'll open up, you know, all the points and that's definitely something that, you know, we have or in buildings we might have been there three years and it's a 30 year old building and a five year internal. What's that? We've never
Drew Slocum: (32:51):
Done that. You have pushed back from it.
Henry Fontana: (32:53):
Well cause they've never heard of it. Cause whoever's been doing the inspections, you know, hasn't done it. Yeah.
Jake Lehman: (32:57):
But they're used
Jake Lehman: (32:58):
To paying for a certain thing and then every five years
Drew Slocum: (33:02):
The bill goes up. Yeah.
Henry Fontana: (33:03):
Right. And I've asked to see their other contracts too. It wasn't any other contractor wasn't even putting it in there. And it's shame on them too cuz it, it's actually very profitable. A five year you're in and out, not not that long. And it's, it's as a fire sprinkler contract, a five-year eternals is a big uh, yeah. Something that, I mean it's great for the customer. It's also great for, for us as well. Cause then we do get the opportunity if they do have corrosion and you're in a data center like hey here's, here's your corrosion, here are your pictures, here's a proposal for an nitrogen system. You know, they have some other system to
Drew Slocum: (33:34):
Fix that. Now that on, on that five year internal I've heard and new. So NFPA 25 and 13 I feel like 25. Mm-hmm.
Henry Fontana: (33:56):
Seven
Drew Slocum: (33:57):
Or even more year. Which why wouldn't you should I think keep it on five year for now until you see the data results.
Jake Lehman: (34:04):
Until you put something that says you gotta make sure
Drew Slocum: (34:06):
You're maintaining
Jake Lehman: (34:07):
Your equipment.
Drew Slocum: (34:07):
Right. Right.
Jake Lehman: (34:08):
That's really what it's gonna come down to. Cause if, like we're saying, if you don't maintain it doesn't matter. That's the reason why you're still
Drew Slocum: (34:14):
Gonna have to, you should still be doing that. Right. Yeah.
Jake Lehman: (34:16):
I don't know if you guys do, but we, we put alarms on there to just be annoying. Basically it's time change filters. Yeah. It's beeping at you and we get that call all the time. Yeah. It's like, okay, I'll tell you how to turn it off. Order some filters, right?
Ray Freeman: (34:28):
Yeah, yeah.
Henry Fontana: (34:29):
Be change it to a, now it's called a five year internal assessment. So it's not even an inspection anymore. You only have to look in a cross main, a sprinkler and at the riser. And if you don't find any form of corrosion, then that's it. You go in another five years. If, if you do find stuff, then you do a five year internal investigation.
Drew Slocum: (34:44):
Investigation. Yes.
Henry Fontana: (34:44):
Then it's flushing, piping and opening up more things and seeing it. So, you know,
Drew Slocum: (34:49):
How often is that getting done though? Um, I mean you guys probably doing it but know
Ray Freeman: (34:55):
Doing well and that's the thing. I mean the maintenance of these things is prescribed an NFPA 25, both unit maintenance, system maintenance, all that type of stuff. But the reality of it is different than what code says. You know, and that's, that's, you know, again, that's the experience that, that we've always looked at with our own history of this is that, you know, people just as much as they, you know, it's, it's just not enforced as much as it should be. And, and despite best efforts that are that are going on, it's not enforced. And when it's not enforced, you you're running into a lot of these problem. Oh
Henry Fontana: (35:26):
Yeah. We're growing around actually cleaning. We've just developed something where like data centers we're sitting, you know, you have this corrosion, you might have leaks. The best thing to do is let's put some water in here. And they're like, no, there's not putting any water in our of our servers. We've had hooked up some crazy snakes with hooked up the shop vacuums that were attached to drills that were sending through the pipe and actually scrubbing the inside of the pipes out, putting them to try to see if that creates a leak to see what pipe would need to be replaced. Because this could have a four inch main running over a whole row of servers on a high, let's say credit card company's data center. They do not want water hitting the servers and have their system down. And now nobody can use a discover card. Clean, clean agent.
Lee Kaiser: (36:08):
Other thing though that's not getting done is we're bringing up dirty secrets. Right? Yeah. Is trip tests aren't being done because the Oh yeah. Scenario you just brought up, they don't want water put in that pipe mm-hmm.
Henry Fontana: (36:58):
Right. So I heard, and I would ask you if people say, oh, nitrogen will dry the water in a way, so if I have a six inch column of water, is nitrogen gonna dry that? No, nothing
Jake Lehman: (37:07):
Is, nothing is, I mean if you got little, little areas of it, it's gonna help dry it out, but not, I mean you got, yeah. You got a six, six inch drop or a foot drop that's got water in it. It's just not enough surface area to dry it out.
Ray Freeman: (37:19):
That's where the, and and to your point about dry air, I mean that's where the flow of the dry air is substantially different than the, uh, flow out of a nitrogen generator. So you're more on par with the flow of an air compressor. So as that air flows through that pipe, it is drying it out because you have enough movement of air inside of there. But, you know, the way that we kind of prescribe it to people is if you think you have a a a columns of water all over the place and stuff like that, I'm telling you, you should probably put nitrogen. Yeah. You know, but if you have a well pitched system where you're, you know, you might have a, a little puddle here, the inside of of the pipe is, is uh, wet, then dry air will dry that out. I mean we've, we've seen it, you know, it's stuff that we've been doing for like I said, uh, 25 years now. So, um, yeah. But you know, again, it's, it might take, you know, it just like nitrogen, it takes a few weeks to do, but it, it gets it dry down in there.
Henry Fontana: (38:10):
That's why you'll get the ice plugs, right?
Ray Freeman: (38:12):
Well, yeah. I mean that's part of it. That's what it was originally designed. Yeah.
Jake Lehman: (38:15):
You're not having additional moisture to the system.
Ray Freeman: (38:17):
Exactly. You don't
Jake Lehman: (38:18):
Have 150, 200 degree air going in cooling down and add moisture to it.
Henry Fontana: (38:25):
Great points guys. This is great. Um, I do see, uh, one downside sometimes of these systems is, uh, training to uh, the end user. So, oh, um, to make sure that the customer who now has this nitrogen system knows, um, you know, he might have to move a sprinkler head around or something. I'll do that myself, but now has no idea and ends up putting a system in bypass and now is, you know, totally not using either their dry air or nitrogen cause they
Lee Kaiser: (38:50):
Weren't properly.
Jake Lehman: (38:52):
Absolutely. And that's why FM's got standards where you gotta have an alarm if they bypass the thing. Ok. I mean that's part of their standard. So, and then once again, something else to be annoying come by, I'll turn, I'll turn one into
Drew Slocum: (39:04):
That here tomorrow. Getting back to your point, Lee, on the, the three year trip full trip test, do you think there's any way to change that? So you don't, you wouldn't have to fully do a three year trip test to the cause? I mean there are ways to do floor delivery time via calculation, but again, you don't know the inside of the pipe. But if you can get inside the pipe and if there's a way to see that from not actually getting in the pipe,
Henry Fontana: (39:28):
We, we have a way
Lee Kaiser: (39:32):
Well I um,
Drew Slocum: (39:35):
Cuz there's a lot of clients that still aren't gonna do it, can do
Jake Lehman: (39:37):
Ultrasonic
Lee Kaiser: (39:37):
Testing to an extent. Yeah. We, so we've in as alternatives, we don't see many other alternatives. We don't see that there's a option in 25 Right. To not do a full flow trip test. Right. Because it tests more than just the exercise of the valve. Right. It tests all, tests, all the uh, uh, detection and control pieces to make it work Right. In that system. Um, we, we do really like the idea, uh, FM global suggested having a control valve downstream of the reaction valve and for the partial flow trip tests Yep. That are supposed to be done yearly. Yep. And use that as a blocking valve. I think that's a great idea. Mm-hmm. Anybody with a reaction system should be putting a blocking valve in and then using that for the partials. I would imagine that, um, if you had performance every year during the partials and you had good performance as far as internal uh, inspections, whether it be via opener, pipe horoscopes or using ultrasound, those would be good alternatives to, to maybe a full flow trip test. But then right now the code doesn't give you that option.
Drew Slocum: (40:46):
That's good. Sorry, I I was trying to coordinate people sitting down behind us.
Henry Fontana: (40:51):
We have a very, uh, sensitive customer who is a very, I'm not gonna say names, but very important person and they will not allow water. Um, so we do go to AJ with it and we put the blocking valve plus a ho hose valve underneath it before we ran at two and a half inch fire hose outside to like a hose monster. And we were still able to test the detection and pull station to make sure everything tripped and fully flowed the valve. Plus we're doing the five year internals on that same system. So we know the inside of the pipes are
Drew Slocum: (41:20):
Right. Um, so there's
Henry Fontana: (41:23):
Ways, so we are doing it.
Drew Slocum: (41:26):
Yeah. The code is one thing but it's like there's also real world stuff.
Henry Fontana: (41:30):
We went to the town and we made sure we actually didn't
Drew Slocum: (41:32):
Have it in first. The, and the customer, we
Henry Fontana: (41:33):
Didn't have it at first. We were just doing partials and actually the valves were failing and did not, when we were doing our annuals and pulling a pull station, we're not operating. We went to the manufacturer and they said, Hey, are you doing a full flow every year? And said no to them. Well stuff gets locked up and done. We'll not, if you're not doing that then don call us. That's true. If there's a fire and the system doesn't open, you have to be doing this. That's why we added those valves to fully flow the, the valve and put that stuff moving around.
Ray Freeman: (41:58):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean you gotta follow manufacturer's recommendations. Right. Make sure that, do you, I mean that's not been our experience on it. You don't ask to, but you know, when it comes back to point and blame,
Henry Fontana: (42:09):
Well we called them say, Hey, your valves aren't working. So they actually sent out, you know, it was a big client. Yeah. And they said, they asked that question and they're like, well they're not working because you're not maintaining them. Well you didn't change your oil in your car. That's why it seized.
Ray Freeman: (42:20):
Right. Yeah. Chocolate syrup coming. Right.
Drew Slocum: (42:26):
So to that point, you know, we, we talk about real world versus I wanna bring this point across cuz there's, there's real world, which we're a lot discussing a lot cause you guys have all been in the real world, but then there's lab world, which, and, and until we get more data in the real world and then compare it to actual a lab world, I don't think we're gonna get that. So I know NFPA 25 is really trying to try it hard to get some of that real world experience with some of the data before by making decisions after that. So, um, you know, a lot of the codes are driven on years past just, just good industry professionals. Like, I don't wanna say they're picking frequencies and all that out of the air, but they, they've experienced that over time. So that's what get written gets written into the code. So I think by driving data behind that is gonna really help out everybody out there and hopefully, uh, there was a big talk on it today. I want to bring that up. So, um, did I get everybody's pros and cons?
Ray Freeman: (43:30):
I think you did. Yeah. Yeah. As far as, you
Drew Slocum: (43:32):
Know, my pros and cons from a supplier, old supplier side, I love selling nitrogen
Ray Freeman: (43:36):
Generators,
Drew Slocum: (43:41):
No, they were great. And um, there, there's applications for 'em. Uh, you know, I think, uh, again, there's pros and cons to both. And from the supplier's point of view, if I put that on pat on, I want to send nitrogen every time. Um, because I'm a supplier, I'm a sales guy, you know, that. So I think that's gotta factor in a little bit too. But education is, is very important. And uh,
Ray Freeman: (44:05):
And to that point, like one of the things we kind of try to warn our suppliers is, you know, make sure that you're, you know, keeping the relationship over time with your customer in mind. You know, I mean if you, if you start selling that into a spot where it doesn't belong, you're gonna hear about it pretty quick. You know, it's like, you know that that supplier, you know, supplier X really pushed this product and I put it in and now it's nothing but problems. And it's like, well, you know, you forgot to tell 'em to address all their air leaks on the front end or maintain the system or maintain the unit or whatever. And you know, by, by not doing that you can really do yourself a disservice as a supplier as well, or contractor salesperson.
Drew Slocum: (44:39):
I was, I was looking at FPA 25. I've been doing a lot obviously with inspect point with that, but I, I've been looking at 2020, I've been to a few meetings with 2020 compared to 2017 and fir first time 20 seventeen's got air compressors in there and there's got a maintenance schedule or testing and
Henry Fontana: (44:58):
Schedule.
Drew Slocum: (44:59):
But what's not in there is nitrogen. And I know they're putting it into 2020, but they've got, they gotta catch up. I feel like they really need to catch up with some of that because if it's not in the standard, then nobody's gonna follow that. They're gonna try to follow the oem. They're like, it's not in the code, so then they're not gonna do it. So I think the quicker we get the nitrogen generation into the code, the better. Absolutely. And maybe it's a, I don't think you can put an addend,
Ray Freeman: (45:27):
I mean all they would've to do in 25 is say to to, you know, cause in 25 it's check your oil, check to see if it's overheating, check the wiring for integrity issues. I mean really you're looking at, has this thing taken some physical damage since the last time that we pulled that? It's
Drew Slocum: (45:40):
Crazy, it taken that long to get it in there.
Ray Freeman: (45:42):
Right? Yeah. Well it is, well before it said, uh, per manufacturer's recommendations, which nobody pays attention to, nobody pay attention to it. So, you know, I mean, so, so it was like, okay, let's be more specific here. Right. Do these things and follow manufacturer recommendations. You know, and it's, you know, so yeah.
Drew Slocum: (45:59):
Feel like if it's in the
Henry Fontana: (45:59):
Go on the fire pump and that's a compressor is a pump, I mean it's, it, it should be on there.
Ray Freeman: (46:04):
So it, I was glad to see it added anything that you do to pay attention to those things. But I mean, for, for that fix, I mean you can just say air compressor or nitrogen generator, I mean, you know, or I mean you can say air supply, I mean whatever it is, your air supply piece of equipment Yeah. You know, is, is really what they should be looking
Drew Slocum: (46:18):
At. That's where they're putting into 2020. It's for, okay, so it's air compressor or then that gets roped into
Ray Freeman: (46:24):
It.
Henry Fontana: (46:24):
We start putting helium in there and then they'll we need our, cause that's why air supply would be better. Yeah. Cause then if you put helium in there, it's your
Ray Freeman: (46:30):
Helium. I do think they should be generalizing
Drew Slocum: (46:32):
If air supply
Henry Fontana: (46:33):
Pneumatic. I mean pneumatic.
Drew Slocum: (46:34):
That's true. Right? Yeah. There's other gas that comes out that's
Henry Fontana: (46:38):
Better. Well, everything is pneumatic is gases. So
Ray Freeman: (46:41):
Error or corrosion mitigation solution. I mean, something along those lines that's more broad base. Because again, I mean nitrogen can out these things, you know, slow to evolve. But like I said, there's, you know, we, we had talked about new types of pipe coming out potentially, you know, I mean there, there's gonna be other solutions to this that come down the
Henry Fontana: (46:57):
Road. I believe know there's a, I don't know who it's, I saw it show that this you get today that has a negative like pressure on their system. Yep. So
Drew Slocum: (47:06):
There has a good way to my next point. You're right ahead of
Henry Fontana: (47:08):
Me. Right. I don't know anything about it, but there has to be a maintenance schedule on that too. Oh, sure.
Drew Slocum: (47:14):
So that's, that's the vacuum system that fire Flex has. Sorry to bring them up, sorry.
Henry Fontana: (47:19):
No,
Ray Freeman: (47:21):
But it proves, it gets to the point though is that it's, it's another solution. So it is again, to sit there and say, well your air compressor, well it's technically not an air compressor, but it also is, you know, it's a backwards air compressor. I mean, really you take the inlet and the outlet and switch 'em up and you've got a vacuum pump.
Drew Slocum: (47:35):
I'm, I'm really interested to see what what they can do with that. If there's anything, again, they're gonna have to test. I don't know how much testing there is with that,
Jake Lehman: (47:43):
But it's just gonna have to run tests
Drew Slocum: (47:45):
On it. Yeah.
Henry Fontana: (47:45):
How does that prevent corrosion? I mean, still
Jake Lehman: (47:48):
Well you're reducing the amount of oxygen that's in the system. Okay. It's still not
Lee Kaiser: (47:53):
Well then anytime you pull a vacuum on a a vessel, it will actually dehydrate it. That's the theory. That's the other thing. So anytime you have pull a vacuum on something, you'll, you'll suck the oxygen out or you'll suck the water out of that
Henry Fontana: (48:07):
Scenario. Looks like how you do our refrigeration line or something before
Lee Kaiser: (48:10):
You Yeah. So if you guys ever did, uh, vacuum pumps in hospitals, all the blood and stuff that they suck out, you know, if any of that gets into the vacuum lines, it all evaporates out of vacuum.
Drew Slocum: (48:22):
Oh
Lee Kaiser: (48:22):
Really? Yeah. So you
Ray Freeman: (48:23):
That's at a true vacuum. Yeah. Yeah.
Jake Lehman: (48:25):
You gotta, you gotta get to
Ray Freeman: (48:26):
That though. You have to get to a certain vacuum level, which again, you're still gonna deal with, with leaks. And are you maintaining that vacuum instead a
Drew Slocum: (48:32):
Fake vacuum compressor? Bigger than what would be on there on the positive side?
Ray Freeman: (48:37):
Um, I
Drew Slocum: (48:38):
Don't know.
Jake Lehman: (48:39):
It depends on what they're getting to. I mean, you know, atmosphere at sea level's 14.7 psi Right, right. I believe their system's pulling negative 2.2 to 2.6.
Drew Slocum: (48:47):
Okay.
Jake Lehman: (48:48):
So, right.
Ray Freeman: (48:49):
So is that always a true vacuum? I don't, you know, it could be. I'm not sure. You know, again, I'm not as familiar
Henry Fontana: (48:54):
With, I feel like if you have a leaf point like that area, now you're sucking in fresh oxygen in that area. So you might get an accelerated corrosion at that leaking 90, like maybe, I dunno.
Drew Slocum: (49:03):
Yeah, I don't think there's much testing been, which is, is not good or bad. It's just
Ray Freeman: (49:09):
Getting done. Gotta evolve. Yeah. It is another option. And you know, and actually from that standpoint, the, um, the uh, faster trip time is really an interesting positive on that. Mm-hmm.
Drew Slocum: (49:20):
Know, I think,
Ray Freeman: (49:22):
Oh is
Drew Slocum: (49:23):
It really? Yes. Yeah. I was that the other day.
Ray Freeman: (49:25):
I was stick to my own products then. Huh?
Drew Slocum: (49:28):
I'm an old Viking guy.
Ray Freeman: (49:30):
Okay. Alright. I thought that was a great feature. I was like, oh
Drew Slocum: (49:33):
That's, I might be saying it wrong, but I heard, I heard it being, because I asked, I asked a few of the people, you know, because I was gotta bring it up. Cuz it is a, a new technology. It is. And uh, again, there'll be some vetting of it, but I think it'll, it'll have its application.
Jake Lehman: (49:47):
Sure. Yeah. It's with anything else. It's gonna have its application. Right. It's just gonna be, is that the right solution for the customer? Right.
Drew Slocum: (49:51):
Yeah. That's a lot of my topics. Let's see,
Henry Fontana: (49:56):
Know why, why we got away from, I mean, a lot of old systems that haven't seen any installed in forever was the reliable model B first. I used like 16 ounces of air and like barely anything in there. And I don't do 'em
Drew Slocum: (50:07):
Internal 16 psi air or
Henry Fontana: (50:08):
Ounces ounces. The Reliable Model B panel just uses ounces for their, uh, um,
Jake Lehman: (50:15):
For their trip
Henry Fontana: (50:16):
For for, for their monitoring of the system.
Drew Slocum: (50:19):
Really? Yeah.
Henry Fontana: (50:19):
And, uh, I mean I, I've replaced them. I haven't put any new ones in, but trying to think about internals that I've done, I haven't really seen much corrosion in, in
Drew Slocum: (50:27):
Any of those, those systems. Interesting. So that went away. It's a, it's a mile. How bigs the,
Henry Fontana: (50:33):
The, the compressor and everything is in a little box. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen pictures of tiny, tiny I little compressor that sits in there and it has a, if it goes down low, it buzzes ripped really loud and then you gotta switch the thing over. It always makes me jump when I was doing testing on them
Drew Slocum: (50:54):
I guess
Henry Fontana: (50:55):
Ifs out there really that much, I think NPA only requires, you know, the minimum error is a creepy something. Whatever
Drew Slocum: (51:02):
The minimum was.
Henry Fontana: (51:03):
The minimum is at that and ounces as meets that minimum.
Drew Slocum: (51:08):
Yeah. I haven't seen it. I know they transitioned away from water.
Henry Fontana: (51:11):
Yeah. So I'm sure you've seen that. You think they moved away from
Ray Freeman: (51:14):
That because of the 30 minute requirement? It just was too small a
Henry Fontana: (51:17):
Compressor to meet that? No, you got, you got your fill time and, and well time
Drew Slocum: (51:21):
Cause it was, yeah,
Henry Fontana: (51:23):
It was literally a tiny little ounce gauge in there. So you were getting your, and I never saw it on huge systems. It was always like little data rooms that had like four or five sprinklers in
Drew Slocum: (51:31):
Right. Those little single interlock, inter interlock pre action systems. Yeah.
Henry Fontana: (51:37):
It opened up a little reliable pre
Drew Slocum: (51:39):
Maybe it was a maintenance issue.
Henry Fontana: (51:40):
And then model B,
Drew Slocum: (51:41):
I dunno, I, I've seen him in New York a bunch mm-hmm.
Ray Freeman: (52:00):
30 minute fill? So
Drew Slocum: (52:00):
I I, I get it. Like you wanna put the suppression or the fire protection system back online. So I think it has something to do with that. But
Ray Freeman: (52:08):
I think another
Drew Slocum: (52:09):
Thing, you don't want it to be a day.
Ray Freeman: (52:11):
Well that, I think that's what drove it, at least the historical perspective that I got on the 30 minute fill was that, um,
(52:19)
There from a building owner, facility manager, they didn't want a contractor in there trying to fill a 2000 gallon system with a one 16 horsepower compressor. Yeah. Yeah. You know, cause and then again, you have multiple systems you have to fill. Cause you do a 30 minute fill, say for your, that applies to the largest one, but you could have 10 systems there. Right. You know, so you could potentially be filling 10 systems for that, which is gonna take a long time. So I think what they, the intention, uh, as far as it was explained to me was that they wanted to give some timeframe that they felt was reasonable for getting the system back online for one, after say a trip or whatever, but also just getting it, you know, uh, just that amount of time to recharge the system was they didn't want to, they didn't want to have that take 24 hours,
Drew Slocum: (52:58):
30 come from.
Henry Fontana: (53:00):
Well
Ray Freeman: (53:00):
It, come on, let's, let's see what they do over there. 30 lunch break.
Drew Slocum: (53:05):
1130. There you go.
Ray Freeman: (53:06):
Henry Fontana: (53:07):
I know how works and I know some big people in my class and other people and I sit on some technical committees and a lot of the numbers for when, um, where things came from. If you asked NFPA the answer is because we just said just because, like why, why 30 minutes? Somebody,
Ray Freeman: (53:22):
Somebody said 60 and somebody was like, that's too much. How about 15? I'm like 30. No. And then done. Okay,
Henry Fontana: (53:29):
It's been in there for so long and I'm sure every cycle there's a public input on it. Hey, can we move it? And I'm sure like, if we looked at the history, I'm sure it's, I
Drew Slocum: (53:36):
Don't know. I haven't seen it on this one. I don't know if there's been an opinion on it for 2020. Maybe there was, what's that? The fill rate.
Henry Fontana: (53:44):
But the reason why I, I did not know.
Ray Freeman: (53:48):
I think there is, I I had heard that there was somebody's proposing changing it, at least with nitrogen to 60 minutes. And I mean to me, I, I dunno. I mean, I just don't see the phone changing. Yeah. Because again, it's, it's, you're, you know, again, that guy's filling up that, you know, they got a generator on six or seven systems and, and again, you have your compressor on there or whatever. It's filling the first system up in 30 minutes or now 60 minutes and now you got seven more. So now you're talking about seven, eight hours worth of filling these, you know, these systems up. I mean it's, you're doubling the amount of time that's
Drew Slocum: (54:17):
Oh, right. It's per system.
Ray Freeman: (54:19):
Per system.
Drew Slocum: (54:19):
Yeah. Yeah.
Ray Freeman: (54:21):
So,
Drew Slocum: (54:22):
And leak rate's another one. You know, where, where does, where do they pick that number from? You know,
Ray Freeman: (54:29):
As far as far as nfps?
Drew Slocum: (54:30):
I'm probably gonna get some bad comments on this from
Henry Fontana: (54:35):
Another just because
Drew Slocum: (54:37):
Yeah. What's it, two psi over two hours. What is, what
Ray Freeman: (54:40):
Is it three PSI over two hours? The test that you can do and NFP
Henry Fontana: (54:43):
Five four, you turn off your low, your compressor and
Drew Slocum: (54:46):
Oh yes. And
Henry Fontana: (54:47):
Then if you don't get any low air alarms within
Drew Slocum: (54:48):
A certain amount Yes. Remember the
Ray Freeman: (54:49):
Amount of time. Yep. That's the other, yeah, there was a four, I think it was a four hour test. I'm not sure I'd
Drew Slocum: (54:53):
Be, I I mean how many contractors are actually doing a leak rate test? Are you guys doing great tests?
Henry Fontana: (54:59):
I mean, if we're trying to, uh,
Drew Slocum: (55:01):
Get deficiencies,
Henry Fontana: (55:02):
Sell a product to the customer and we want to prove that they have leaks, so then
Drew Slocum: (55:07):
That's only Okay, that makes sense.
Lee Kaiser: (55:09):
So yeah, on that, um, along those lines, we, over the last couple years, we had a customer that wanted to do a bunch of sprinkler rehabilitation to their systems and we used leakage rate testing to justify what type of nitrogen solution to do. So, um, in essence, these were, these were, uh, telecom facilities, 30 different facilities over, um, I think 18 months. And what we installed on these risers before we touched anything, we installed a pressure transducer off one of the taps and we watched, um, over a week the pressure cycling so we could determine a leakage rate. And then we took a little data logger and we pulled that data, put it into a, a computer. We were able to get an Excel spreadsheet of watching the pressure change. Right. And, uh, from that data we, we determined it, uh, matrix or decision tree on what, what solution they needed. Yeah. And so ultimately our formula is if the connected system volume is over 400 gallons of water, then it gets a nitrogen generated. If it is less than 400 gallons, then we look at the leakage rate and we determine that it was appropriate cost-wise. If a bottle of nitrogen would last six months, then we would use a bottle system
(56:40)
If it wouldn't last six months, a single bottle of nitrogen that we would use a nitrogen generator. Cause we knew that the, the site wouldn't let bottles handle that frequently. Huh. So we use that pressure transducer to get that leakage rate data. We could always see How frequently
Drew Slocum: (56:55):
Do you guys bring that, that kind of stuff to other clients? Or is that
Lee Kaiser: (56:58):
Yeah, we've, we've rolled it out to other customers that we have and, um, used that as an approach. Now we, we've got some other things that are part of that program, uh, on another decision tree that we use on what pipes to replace. Right. But, um, for the most part on the nitrogen system, we, we use, um, that pressure transducer data for that. And then we, we leave the pressure transducer in, in place and every five years when we do the, um, you know, the five year inspection Yep. Five year. Yeah. We pull that data again and see if this see, basically, see if the nitrogen's working because if the leakage rate has increased, we know if something's a
Drew Slocum: (57:34):
Problem.
Lee Kaiser: (57:35):
Yeah. But otherwise, uh, you know, if it holds steady Yeah. We've got the data there to prove that it's
Drew Slocum: (57:41):
Holding steady. I think that leak rate is a critical variable or that that point, if you can grab leak rate, I think that's, that's huge. That tells you a lot, right?
Jake Lehman: (57:50):
Yeah. We're, we're building that into a lot of our stuff where it'll tell you how much nitrogen we put out last time it ran
Drew Slocum: (57:55):
That day, that month.
Jake Lehman: (57:56):
You can go back and look at a 12 month history Yep. And see if you're trending one way or the other. Mm-hmm.
Drew Slocum: (58:05):
Let you know that Yeah.
Jake Lehman: (58:06):
You're not doing what you're supposed
Drew Slocum: (58:07):
To. Right.
Ray Freeman: (58:09):
It's that 30 minute fill that, that really made leak rates not come up very much historically because you know, you have that 30 minute fill, you have a compressor sign to fill one to fill you a thousand gallon in 30 minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have enough flow to keep up with insane leak rates. I mean, just, I mean, for real, for, for a compressor to be running so much that it can't keep up with leak rates of the system. I mean, it's gonna be windy in that building, you know what I mean? Like, I mean, it's gonna blow your hat off. I mean, you're talking about, you know, I mean they're just incredible, you know, size for that, not for leak rate. So, and again is interesting generate, you know, yeah. So it changes, it, it changes the equation as you introduce something with, with less flow is why there's, you know, some of those issues there.
Drew Slocum: (58:49):
Huh. So it's not get rid of fill rate, let's just talk the crane, but maybe a sub factor is fill rate, can't have somebody there all day
Lee Kaiser: (59:01):
Nope. No.
Drew Slocum: (59:02):
Uh, what we didn't talk about is, is galvanized, I kind of popped into my head, um, that we talked about pipe earlier. I think galvanized is kind of transitioning out for a lot of drugs. I mean, there's definitely application for an external, uh, application, but for,
Lee Kaiser: (59:18):
For
Drew Slocum: (59:18):
External corion, external control, external corrosion control where it's outside exposed to the elements or even if you're close to the ocean or whatever and it's still inside, you get some moist air, you know. But, uh, it's starting to move its
Henry Fontana: (59:31):
Way out as a contractor. I've seen, and I'm not a pipe guy or a scientist or anything, I have no idea the reason why, but corrosion a lot worse in galvanized pipe. Sure. And in black
Drew Slocum: (59:41):
Pipe,
Henry Fontana: (59:42):
Just absolute looking, just from my own experience opening up pipes, thousands of systems and seeing in it galvanized is, is always, and talking about external corrosion, we did a job that was underneath, it was an assault do underneath one of the major bridges in New York City. And they had an issue with, um, external corrosion, but they had so much internal corrosion. Um, the problem was that joints on the bridge were waterproofs so the salt would come in. So we actually just put an underneath each expansion joint, uh, PVC pipe over the black pipe just as like a sleeve.
Drew Slocum: (01:00:11):
Wow. Just laying
Henry Fontana: (01:00:12):
On top of it. And now when the water comes through the bridge, it just hits that PVC pipe, it falls down.
Drew Slocum: (01:00:16):
That's crazy.
Henry Fontana: (01:00:18):
They, we went a black pipe because of the internal corrosion that we're having with the galvanized. Right. Right. Now we painted, we put a, uh, we put a like epoxy paint on top, but plus it was actually, it was just an idea like, hey, I know they, and then 13 says you're not supposed to put any external load on the pipe, but it was just a little no four foot section of PVC pipe that we stuck up there. And
Drew Slocum: (01:00:38):
We won't mention the project
Ray Freeman: (01:00:40):
Drew Slocum: (01:00:41):
There's plenty of
Henry Fontana: (01:00:41):
Hangers. It's not
Ray Freeman: (01:00:42):
Like we were hanging couch from the system.
Henry Fontana: (01:00:46):
That's fine.
Drew Slocum: (01:00:47):
Uh, um,
Henry Fontana: (01:00:49):
So I mean, that's just my experience. I mean, you guys see, you probably stuck pipe in your shop
Drew Slocum: (01:00:53):
All the time. Well, yeah,
Jake Lehman: (01:00:54):
We run, we run, you know, an eight year test basically galvanized pipe. Once the zinc becomes breached, corrosion becomes localized. So, I mean, I've seen 18 months, 24 month pipe with pinhole leaks in it just because that corrosion. It's like somebody took a drill to the inside of it. Yeah. Is
Henry Fontana: (01:01:09):
There a difference between how dipped galvanized and the one that's actually know the other name?
Ray Freeman: (01:01:13):
Uh,
Jake Lehman: (01:01:14):
Once it becomes breached,
Ray Freeman: (01:01:15):
Right.
Drew Slocum: (01:01:16):
There is a difference because I, working on the pipe mill, I was, I did galvanize and then we did the other line, which was hot dip. Hot dip wasn't, it was good cuz it knee it, but then the other was more of a, a coating. So definitely the, um, when you knee it, it's, it is better. But still, once you breach that layer doesn't
Jake Lehman: (01:01:38):
Matter. Yeah. You start roll groom and
Drew Slocum: (01:01:39):
Stuff's that pop
Jake Lehman: (01:01:40):
Off, you start putting welts on it right
Drew Slocum: (01:01:42):
There. What's the steel underneath? You know? Yeah. It's probably the same hot roll that you have. Underneaths
Ray Freeman: (01:01:46):
As galvanized was getting more and more popular. We were, we were starting to see a lot of problems. What was that? Late eighties, early nineties when it, when, when galvanized was coming into play, uh, in a bigger way. You know, people were calling us up being like, you know, your compressors are burning up earlier than, you know, we expect, you know, we expect 10 to 15 years of life and they're seeing six, seven years of life and we're trying to figure out what's going on. You know, we just
Drew Slocum: (01:02:06):
Should have grabbed the data for that. Yeah. Right.
Ray Freeman: (01:02:07):
Yeah. We need a data tracker for sure. I mean, but I mean, 1980s, you know, you, it was exciting if you had a car phone, you know, so
Henry Fontana: (01:02:48):
So, and of course I look totally different too, was all that white flaky stuff, it's not at all. But we would see in, in the black pipe.
Jake Lehman: (01:02:56):
Yeah. Black pipe's more uniform that's taking place. And your corrosion deposits are building up your area. You're ending up with areas of, you know, localized frozen. Cause you got pockets underneath now. All, all the debris that's built up inside there.
Drew Slocum: (01:03:07):
What if they did galvanize just exterior?
Jake Lehman: (01:03:11):
I mean the test that we showed with nitrogen on the interior that's shown the pipe lasting.
Henry Fontana: (01:03:16):
Well think of external project. So
Drew Slocum: (01:03:18):
Just showing the exterior and then the interior. I don't know if you could, I mean they're hot dipping, mostly galvanized.
Henry Fontana: (01:03:23):
Just put a little duct tape on the animals. Where you dipping
Drew Slocum: (01:03:30):
Pipe guys are gonna hate me.
Henry Fontana: (01:03:34):
Um, I mean we, a couple incidents where we had, um, corrosive environments and we used two stage epoxy paint where we painted it in our shop where we mixed it.
Drew Slocum: (01:03:44):
Yeah. Epoxy actually works. It, it works really well.
Henry Fontana: (01:03:47):
Great. It was an opening system too. We, we, uh, used, um, it was a gastric system. So uh, when we dipped the heads in wax, the manufacturer allowed us so that none of the cursor could get sprinkler head. The end. No, it was a gas system. Oh, gas system. So it was No, no, it was an open, you know, like, like two.
Drew Slocum: (01:04:08):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It let you dip.
Henry Fontana: (01:04:11):
Well, because our problem
Drew Slocum: (01:04:12):
Was the nole and wax
Henry Fontana: (01:04:13):
Well, to cover up the, the or pieces. So when it blow, when it just, they would blow it out, it would just blow it out and there was no thermal link or anything in the, in the nole that would be affected by it. It's just a brass huh. Thing.
Drew Slocum: (01:04:26):
Right. And then yeah, you would cover the hole, huh?
Henry Fontana: (01:04:30):
Cause they were worried about the corrosive air getting in
Drew Slocum: (01:04:32):
That. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's really all the topics I got. You guys want to bring anything else up before, uh, wrap this up? Or?
Henry Fontana: (01:04:41):
I just have a question for nitrogen manufacturer. So, so the bottles of nitrogen that we buy and all that, are those like air gas and welding supplies, are they using nitrogen generators to, because they have such massive maps?
Jake Lehman: (01:04:52):
Some, some places will, yeah. It depends on if it, if it's beneficial for 'em to do that. I mean, you
Henry Fontana: (01:04:57):
Know prior lot Yeah.
Jake Lehman: (01:04:59):
If you've got large places like that. But there are situations where we're running into supplying a generator with a booster and taking it up to the, the purity or you know, the pressure and the purity that they want. Cuz you can get, you can get all different purity Yeah. Gases out of a bottle. So that's the other thing you gotta be careful with too. You gotta make sure you're getting 98% or better. Um, you know, and a lot of times you can get certified gases that tell you exactly what the, the purity level is. But that's something else to look at when you're using bottles.
Drew Slocum: (01:05:29):
Anything else guys? No. Just need to have input. Yeah, you're still on. We
Henry Fontana: (01:05:35):
Just need to have one.
Drew Slocum: (01:05:37):
We're still live. We lot of views. Oh, we have live views. Oh wow. But need to
Henry Fontana: (01:05:42):
Get one on, uh, web pipe pro. Cause I see a lot of that
Drew Slocum: (01:05:44):
Too. But that's being, yeah, that's be, uh, maybe
Henry Fontana: (01:05:49):
I see just as much. I Sure.
Drew Slocum: (01:05:50):
I'll have a pipe guy on here.
Ray Freeman: (01:05:52):
So's gonna get on here and
Drew Slocum: (01:05:53):
Yell at you for hour. That's alright. I used to be a pipe guy. So, um, so before we go, uh, thanks for everybody for joining, but I'll give you guys a few minutes, talk about what you got coming out, how to contact you, uh, give your info and we'll tag you and all this stuff as well. Jake, how can we find it? Uh, you can't
Jake Lehman: (01:06:16):
You con constantly moving. No, you can, you can get ahold of us, uh, south tech systems.com. Uh, you get ahold of me directly.
Drew Slocum: (01:06:23):
Uh,
Jake Lehman: (01:06:24):
Either call the office (910) 332-4173. My direct extension's 1 3 7. That'll come to my cell phone. Call me anytime. Call me at two. I'm giving the phone to my wife. I'm just giving you fair warning
Drew Slocum: (01:06:36):
Jake Lehman: (01:06:38):
But, uh, pretty much anytime as far as that goes. Uh, commercial sales@southtechsystems.com. We'll get you in touch with any of our fire protection guys.
Drew Slocum: (01:06:45):
Cool. Thanks Jake.
Lee Kaiser: (01:06:47):
Yeah, Lee Kaiser or protection, so our websites or protection.com, we've got a contact us form there or info@orprotection.com is a great way to get ahold of us. We have a lot of content about special hazards and fire alarm systems There a lot of content about corrosion and, and really written from our perspective and things that we see. We've got some webinars that are recorded available on there on corrosion and specifically our perspective, the things that we talked about with this, uh, remediation program and the pressure transducer all can be found on, on, uh, web, you know,
Drew Slocum: (01:07:24):
Video. Yeah, I wanna see that pressure trans there. So, cool.
Henry Fontana: (01:07:31):
Um, yeah, it's a company's fire design in New Jersey. I don't know who's gonna contact us and won't make anything we install systems, but we are websites. Fdj co.com. There is a contact us link on there. If you're looking to get a system inspected or installed in a New York City area, hit us up and we'll sure enough come out and take a look at it.
Drew Slocum: (01:07:50):
Um,
Ray Freeman: (01:07:50):
Websites, general air products.com. Our 800 numbers 803 4 5 8 2 0 7. You will get a human being on the line and answers your questions. Um, on East Coast time between, you know, eight and five, um, we have, um, uh, the one thing I put in is that we, we have a, uh, a training room that we just put together. So we have, uh, equipment from every man manufacturer in the industry in there, uh, 40 C classrooms. So we're running classes out of there. And, um, so we love have people, you know, jump on that, that website's, training dot, general air products done.
Drew Slocum: (01:08:23):
Oh, I haven't seen that yet. We have
Ray Freeman: (01:08:24):
A class coming up, uh, June, end of June here. And we have,
Drew Slocum: (01:08:27):
Uh, nice. Yeah.
Ray Freeman: (01:08:28):
Several of 'em coming up
Drew Slocum: (01:08:29):
Down. We need, need another classroom. Yeah, we, not
Henry Fontana: (01:08:32):
Enough training as well. Not set up that way for, for classes, uh, for the public, but for our own industry. And, uh, full, there's 16 valves and air all hooked up to the water. Cool. Hooked up to a general air compressor and a nice system. And, uh, it's a nice hands-on system. If someone was in the New Jersey area and just wanted to stop in and play with some valves, they could do that as well.
Drew Slocum: (01:08:52):
Awesome. Um, drew, you know me, drew@inspectpoint.com, you know how to get ahold of me, but, uh, guys, thanks everybody. This is awesome. Thank you. Thanks, drew. What do you, what do you, what do you think? That's too bad. Lots to do it again.
Ray Freeman: (01:09:08):
The margaritas helped
Drew Slocum: (01:09:12):
This has been episode 19 of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. This was a great time. This podcast, uh, live at N F P A called Clearing the Air. Uh, we did it live, it was kind of right outside the box. We, we actually posted it on Facebook Live as well. Feel free to check out the video, make sure you subscribe, pass along, uh, the Fire Protection podcast and hopefully, uh, everybody's enjoying it. Here's a little, uh, outtake we had right before the end. Have a good day.
Chris Logan: (01:09:42):
Thank you. Say one other way around. Yeah. Okay. Margarita. I've never in my life had shit. I'm from Canada, man. What you do up there? We drink beer. I wanna watch you have your first margarita. This is
Henry Fontana: (01:09:53):
Like seeing the ochi. There's salt on the top. That's what that white stuff is. It's
Chris Logan: (01:09:56):
Salt. Okay. That's salt. Thank you for cleaning that up. Canada. Right. Put this in there like, uh,
Henry Fontana: (01:10:06):
You can, I don't,
Drew Slocum: (01:10:07):
It's a little You
Chris Logan: (01:10:08):
Don't. Okay.